Personal Issues with Ares

[Kullervo]

Ares is often a violent god, but he is not violence personified.

[QuestioningNewbie]

Laria-If I was trying to gain weight(I struggled heavily with being VERY underweight as a child. I ate loads of food, but just had a fast metabolism.I was also extremely short till I was about 9 or so, so it wasn't that odd looking. I was only about 4 pounds or so when I was born, and thus my mum worried a lot about that.) I might consider offering junkfood(Or something heavy in healthier oils.). Though, I suppose it would depend on why I was praying, if asking for something, or just in general, and if I was asking for something, what I'm asking for.Though I do agree with you it would depend on the God.

Now, about Ares. I am against fighting physically for a varsity of reasons that I'm not going to go into, and I've been beaten up for my beliefs(With a police officer watching once, and the police officer didn't do anything because she knows the guys(They're druggies for the most part, and get mad rather easily.The stance on them generally is that they'll drop out soon enough and leave soon enough.), and knows that sending them to jail or arresting them wouldn't help. Not fun at all. But, it is my morals, and some of the guys are stronger than I, and the one time a friend tried to intervene, despite being a strong guy, he got his arm broken(In school none the less, and the school refused to suspend the guys who broke his arm. But, if anything, it's probably best they stay in school as much as possible. They're less violent there than they are outside of school.). As a result, I get beaten up less severely for my beliefs if I'm quiet about them(Ie, just some small bruises as opposed to broken bones), and don't fight if I'm getting beaten up. Protecting my head is probably all I can do, along with avoiding the people like the plague. So I'm pretty dead set in my morals against violence and have had them tested.), because despite knowing karate, I've refused to use it against a person if my life is not in danger, and even should my life truly be in danger, I would prefer to use very minimal force even if it means grave injuries to myself, and no matter the case, I've personally decided to refuse to kill others, even if it means dying(I personally believe that this is one of the most effective means of stopping people from being violent, but that would go into why I'm against war and such.). That's one reason I'm nervous about honoring Ares in any form, other than remembering he exists. I feel awkward enough honoring Athene, because she is a goddess of war to a degree. However, if I can manage to mentally view Ares as a god of mental conflict or such(I'm not sure if he is), I might be more able to honor him. Though, I do feel somewhat divided over honoring a God who I cannot accept major parts of their personality of, or what they are even the God of. I will have to do more research on him though. I'm not quite "seeing" him as I saw Hera, just getting the sense when I'm doing rituals that he would like something specifically offered to him,similar to how Hestia once asked for some incense and Athene has somewhat indicated she wants chocolate and doesn't really like incense. However, I don't know if my viewpoint of him would become more clear if I honored him beyond the honoring I do for all the Gods.

Looking at Theoi.com, it appears he was also a god of peace(I'm not sure if there was another God/Goddess who more often assumed this role. It sounds like they felt Aphrodite was the one who got Ares to not be violent, so I'm not sure if that would mean Aphrodite was the Goddess of peace, or Ares was the God of it.) http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AresGod.html and rebellion/civil order(Some of the few kinds of violence I think should be considered tolerable depending on one's personal morals.I would not make a good police officer. As so far as revolutions go, peaceful is my opinion on how they should go, but rarely do.) If he was invoked to help people control violent impulses, then that's also a lot easier for me to deal with. I also find it interesting that he was honored in Thrake(Where the Celts were near Greece), since I've been divided as to honor the Fey or not. http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/HoraEirene.html indicates that there was a clear Goddess of peace, but I'm not sure if she was honored as such for peace generally, or just spring, or what. I'll have to do some more research to see exactly how he was viewed and if the peace bit was really minor or what not before I can honor Ares. (Though, it sounds like he was offered gifts to keep war away. That sounds a little too close to "using" a god for "spells" than I like, but I'd have to think on it given that I do deal with idiots in my life. If I didn't I'd be less worried about offering gifts and such.) If he wasn't a rapist, then I guess that's one plus in his favor! XD It certainly helps with finding non sexist Gods, if he apparently viewed women as not quite lesser(Giving gifts to the Amazons, and such.).

[laria]

That's one reason I'm nervous about honoring Ares in any form, other than remembering he exists. I feel awkward enough honoring Athene, because she is a goddess of war to a degree. However, if I can manage to mentally view Ares as a god of mental conflict or such(I'm not sure if he is), I might be more able to honor him. Though, I do feel somewhat divided over honoring a God who I cannot accept major parts of their personality of, or what they are even the God of. I will have to do more research on him though.

I've got to say, I find it hard to believe you'd rather die than kill someone. I understand being a pacifist, but it's human nature to want to survive. Like you couldn't consciously try to drown yourself by keeping yourself submerged - your body would just come up automatically.

And, imo, Ares is a god of survival. He's a god of masculinity, of courage, bravery, evolution, strength, keeping the order and peacefulness (as the father of Harmonia, goddess or daimona of harmony) as well as war and violence. He also looks after those who can't help themselves - he's a god who protects victims, rather than championing bullies.

Looking at Theoi.com, it appears he was also a god of peace(I'm not sure if there was another God/Goddess who more often assumed this role. It sounds like they felt Aphrodite was the one who got Ares to not be violent, so I'm not sure if that would mean Aphrodite was the Goddess of peace, or Ares was the God of it.)
[cut] If he was invoked to help people control violent impulses, then that's also a lot easier for me to deal with.
[cut] there was a clear Goddess of peace, but I'm not sure if she was honored as such for peace generally, or just spring, or what. I'll have to do some more research to see exactly how he was viewed and if the peace bit was really minor or what not before I can honor Ares.
[cut] If he wasn't a rapist, then I guess that's one plus in his favor! XD It certainly helps with finding non sexist Gods, if he apparently viewed women as not quite lesser(Giving gifts to the Amazons, and such.).

Yeah, Ares is apparently one of very few gods who didn’t ever take anyone forcefully. As I said, he’s a god of masculinity – imo, of ‘proper’ & non-raping men, not of cowards. The Amazons were said to be his daughters, and that they were women warriors championed by him suggests that he isn’t misogynistic. <shrug> Ares isn’t a bad god even by human morals; and it’s my opinion that the Iliad, Odyssey, etc, portrayed him as disliked by the other gods simply because part of his realm is war – which isn’t exactly something people love and want to see more of.
The Horai seem more, to me, to be concerned with periods of time than individual peace – so Eirene would reign over times of not-war, but these may not be utterly peaceful and lacking in violence.
On the other hand, Harmonia ‘presided over marital harmony, soothing strife and discord [as a daughter of Aphrodite]; as a daughter of Ares, she represented harmonious action in war.’

[Kullervo]

The more I think about Ares, the more I find myself loving him.

Before a live-fire exercise one time in Puerto Rico, I pulled out my white portable altar-cloth, lit a candle, and prayed to Ares. My pagan-friendly classics-major buddy joined in while our Christian platoon leader looked on. We sacrificed a bag of M&Ms, and at the end, I handed one to the PL. He got all nervous and said "If I eat this, will it make me pagan?." I told him that was ultimately up to him. So he ate it (big shocker, it did not "make him pagan...") It was kind of awesome though.

The live-fire exercise went well, nobody got hurt, the training was excellent.

[YoungSoulRebel]

...[snipped for length]...That's one reason I'm nervous about honoring Ares in any form, other than remembering he exists. I feel awkward enough honoring Athene, because she is a goddess of war to a degree. However, if I can manage to mentally view Ares as a god of mental conflict or such(I'm not sure if he is), I might be more able to honor him. Though, I do feel somewhat divided over honoring a God who I cannot accept major parts of their personality of, or what they are even the God of.

Have you ever considered that this may be intended as a sign that the morals you hold to are wrong for you? Sometimes the Theoi challenge us in ways that we don't like, so we take from their lessons only what we WANT, not what's BEST for us. Anybody who's built a complex relationship with a Deity tends to attest to this, but that's not necessary to see the possibility that the lesson may not be something you like, but rather something you need to learn, just a mind that is truly open to learning from Them. Serious, since "the honeymoon ended", as they say, I find Apollon more antagonistic than most choose to -- they'd rather see Apollon, God Of Light and Oracles and Song rather than Apollon, God of Moderation and Self-Betterment and Yes, Even Wars.

...[snip Aphrodite and Ares rambling]...

Often there are several Deities that share a domain -- at first, as in Archaic and Classical-period Hellas, it seems this was mainly because there was no single unified "Hellenic religion", but instead over thirty (! yes) "Hellenic tribes" with their own deities. Slowly, through the end of the Classical period (or rather, what we know as such)and into what we now call the Hellenistic period, tribal practises became what defined the tribes of Hellas while tribal deities became either epithets of Olympians or "minor deities" who specialised in a certain aspect of that realm or an extremely specific realm; or sometime "major deities" would specialise whilst "minor deities" would generalise. Therefore, Eirene is THE Goddess of Peace, all Peace, and it can be argued that Aphrodite may specialise in the Harmony of Togetherness, while Ares may see over the Peace that comes when war-arms are finally laid down (this is just me throwing something out there -- I may be talking complete crap).

I've got to say, I find it hard to believe you'd rather die than kill someone. I understand being a pacifist, but it's human nature to want to survive. Like you couldn't consciously try to drown yourself by keeping yourself submerged - your body would just come up automatically.

Yeah... I'm also finding this a little hard to believe, but this really isn't the first time I've encountered somebody taking pacifism to such a degree.

And, imo, Ares is a god of survival. He's a god of masculinity, of courage, bravery, evolution, strength, keeping the order and peacefulness (as the father of Harmonia, goddess or daimona of harmony) as well as war and violence. He also looks after those who can't help themselves - he's a god who protects victims, rather than championing bullies.

This is true -- believe me, Hellenic mythology has no shortage of dicks. Achilles? Dick. Herakles? Dick, but often portrayed as struggling against His own dickishness. Kronos? Total Dick. In Orphic cosmology, ALL the Titans except the celestials are especial dicks. If there's one thing that the Hellenic mythologies don't need, it's more dicks (come to think of it, it doesn't need more "dicks-as-slang-for-penis", either, but being a poufter, I don't mind that so much). Ares mar preside over War and Violence, but the fact that the mythos don't make Him look like a dick seems rather telling. If one thinks that this domain alone is kind of a Dick thing to preside over, then one should really think about how much good has REALLY come from these things.

Wars have ended slavery -- and for millennia previous, slavery was often a perfectly acceptable spoil of war. Fighting violence with counter-violence has often enough actually prevented rapes and murders -- which I'm sure we can all agree are measurably worse things to happen to a person than a black eye or broken bone. Even in revolutionary movements that have made genuine progress, the peaceful talkers have only made significant progress when there have been those willing to put their own safety on the line for the cause, and demonstrate physically -- the women's suffrage (and later, all-encompassing rights) movement began as talk and peaceful actions, but didn't make real progress until many, now nameless demonstrators were willing to head out to $tate capitals, throw some bottles, and make a fuss -- knowing full well that they were going to be hauled off to asylums for torturous "rehabilitation". Finally the Talkers had something to say "look, these women want the same things we do, and they won't stop doing this until we get the vote". Violence may be unpleasant, and it's definitely not something that everybody can be up to doing, but it's a pretty far stretch to call it unnecessary.

[Kullervo]

This is true -- believe me, Hellenic mythology has no shortage of dicks. Achilles? Dick. Herakles? Dick, but often portrayed as struggling against His own dickishness.

Keeping in mind that the ancient Hellenes had what was in some ways a radically different value set than modern liberal western culture does. We see "dick," they see "hero."

[Pain And Light]

Laria-If I was trying to gain weight(I struggled heavily with being VERY underweight as a child. I ate loads of food, but just had a fast metabolism.I was also extremely short till I was about 9 or so, so it wasn't that odd looking. I was only about 4 pounds or so when I was born, and thus my mum worried a lot about that.) I might consider offering junkfood(Or something heavy in healthier oils.). Though, I suppose it would depend on why I was praying, if asking for something, or just in general, and if I was asking for something, what I'm asking for.Though I do agree with you it would depend on the God.

Okay, I meant to leave this bit over on the original topic...so I'm going to copy, quote and respond to it over there. If anyone else wants to respond to the above quoted part of this topic, please do so in the original thread after I've posted it back over there. It'll probably be a few minutes, but shouldn't be long til I have it over there.


I will respond to the rest of the post momentarily.

[YoungSoulRebel]

This is true -- believe me, Hellenic mythology has no shortage of dicks. Achilles? Dick. Herakles? Dick, but often portrayed as struggling against His own dickishness.

Keeping in mind that the ancient Hellenes had what was in some ways a radically different value set than modern liberal western culture does. We see "dick," they see "hero."

In ancient Greek "heros" was typically defined as "one who changes the world and our perceptions of it" -- there was also the "age of the Heros", as outlined by Hesiod, before the current Bronze Age of Man, where Mankind was greater, stronger, and more pure of soul than the current "bronze" men, and implying that pre-bronze ethics were different than what was expected, even in Hesiod's time. Technically speaking, "heros" is a title often afforded to even the Thespian youth Narkissos -- and his story is typically told as a morality lesson.

While Akhilles was praised in many ways, I've found it impossible to come up with even a fragment that praises his unrestrained rage -- even in The Iliad, Zeus appoints others Gods to go and restrain Akhilles.

Herakles? Where should I start? I can think of several instances just off the top of my head where He was punished by the gods for one transgression or another (his instances of murder come to mind -- hardly a virtue in ancient Hellas, wouldn't you agree?); as I said, it's Herakles' struggle against his own dickishness that gave rise to His cult in Thebes (Boeotia). He was a dick, even by ancient Hellenic standards, but it was overcoming this that made Him worthy of placement amongst the Theoi.

My point still stands while your simplistic definition of "hero" falls. I bugs the crap out of me that people try to treat the ancient peoples as if their morals were so wildly different from our own. While it's intellectually dishonest to say that there are no differences at all, there still exist far more similarities. Shit, you can tell that things haven't really changed much when you look at historical figures like Diogenes the Cynic, who (for all practical purposes) made it his life's work to hold a mirror to what he saw as his society's corruptions and ignorance of what he considered true virtue, even accusing Platonic schools of vanity through the debates and discussions of abstract philosophy. Hell, wasn't it the Greeks who originally coined the original version of "damned kids these days, they got no respect for anything!" Five thousand years later, people are still throwing fits against the corruption of the overculture and bitching about "these damned kids". That's not a change, in my book.

[Kullervo]

I'm not saying that the ancients were totally alien to us, and I'm also not saying that Achilles and Hercules were considered total paragons of ancient virtue. You read too much into a two-sentence comment.

But to claim that the ancient Hellenes shared modern western liberal values is completely ridiculous. I know that's not actually your claim, but it was actually my point. Achilles and Hercules were not paragons of ancient virtue, but they did display virtues that the modern liberal West would not consider virtuous. There's a mismatch there, a Venn diagram of virtue.

[YoungSoulRebel]

I'm not saying that the ancients were totally alien to us, and I'm also not saying that Achilles and Hercules were considered total paragons of ancient virtue. You read too much into a two-sentence comment.

But to claim that the ancient Hellenes shared modern western liberal values is completely ridiculous. I know that's not actually your claim, but it was actually my point. Achilles and Hercules were not paragons of ancient virtue, but they did display virtues that the modern liberal West would not consider virtuous. There's a mismatch there, a Venn diagram of virtue.

I can pull you ancient quotes condemning war -- nothing from Cynics, either.

Furthermore, I can just as easily point out that most of the "virtues" that we have a written record of are from people who were born and raised into an educated elite class -- and we can agree that ancient societies were far more class-based than even modern Western class-based society; the "virtues" of the educated Hellenic elite may very well not have matched up with the virtues of those on the lower rungs of the ladder. I mean, hell, the "Western liberals" you're calling out against are, far more often than not, just members of the higher working classes who, due to educational and technological progresses, are finally heard, their values finally given their due -- and who are they speaking out against? The leisure class, "old money", the Elite.

Things really haven't changed all that much.